Symptoms of bent driveshaft/axleshaft?

[991.8l]

So i've had a weird disturbance going on with my TSX for sometime. I've elminated it from being the wheels/tires as the issue exists with both my summer and now winter tires on the car.

Symptom #1
- When the car is rolling/driving something feels out of round.
- When driving the "out of roundness/disturbance" gets worse around 45-50km/h then kind of tapers off past 60km/h.
- think of it as driving on oval/egg shaped wheels

Symptom #2
- at random I feel a shaking in the driverside floor at about 80-90km/h on the highway. Then the steering wheel starts to shake at about 100km/h+ but not wheel balance shake (side to side) but more of a general vibration in all directions.
- somedays its fine, somedays its there. I've rotated the wheels and swapped back and forth between sets and its still there.
- for some reason this seems to be more noticeable in colder weather.. less than 10 degrees. (It did it this morning)


Possible causes:

I hit a pot hole this summer that bent my front passenger side wheel. There have also been multiple threads on TSXClub that seem to indicate that TSXs generally have weak/bad axles.

Diagnose?

What is the best way to diagnose a bent axleshaft? I've jacked the car up and spun the wheels by hand.. its very hard to see if the wheel is going up and down. I'm not sure if its my eyes or not, but I think I might see the axleshaft moving up and down.

I'm going to my mechanic on Friday either way. So I'll have him take a look.. just curious if you've ever seen a problem like this before. :confused:


A parellel put probably unrelated issue also exists with my front rotors:

- At 20,000kms front rotors were "warped" and machined under warranty. On car brake lathe.
- At 50,000kms those rotors were done, and replaced with new rotors
- At about 70,000kms and 9-10 months later, those rotors were warped
- At 75,000kms those were machined, but started showing signs of warp after 6 months now with 85000kms on the clock.

[Azi]

Maybe the bearing is going bad?

[991.8l]

Maybe the bearing is going bad?

I've done the wheel bearing check and also don't hear any noise/humming coming from the wheels.

[Azi]

which wheel bearing check?

[Hacker]

1. Has an alignment been done after hitting the pothole? If so, what were the results of the alignment?
2. Did you see any unusual/uneven tire wear when swapping out the summers?
3. Do the symptoms change (i.e. get better or worse) when turning left or right at a constant speed?

J.

[cruisinblackp5]

Get underneath the car. You just may see something if it's not the bearing.

[991.8l]

1. Has an alignment been done after hitting the pothole? If so, what were the results of the alignment?
2. Did you see any unusual/uneven tire wear when swapping out the summers?
3. Do the symptoms change (i.e. get better or worse) when turning left or right at a constant speed?

J.

1. Yes alignment was done, I have the report at home I can post the results.
2. Tires are so new I see little to no tire wear, I also swapped them back to front so many times it would be hard to tell.
3. The symptoms seem to be a little more noticeable on a on-ramp turning a sharp right.

[991.8l]

Get underneath the car. You just may see something if it's not the bearing.

This is the only thing that looked weird above the axle.. but its just chipped paint.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Acura/P0004_041010.jpg

This is what the suspension looks like, a fair bit different than my protege:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Random/DSC02130.jpg

control arms up top:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Random/DSC02128.jpg

[991.8l]

which wheel bearing check?

Ball joint & wheel bearing check.. jack up the car check for play in the wheel up and down vs side to side.

[991.8l]

I'm going to jack up the front end and spin the wheels again to compare the passenger side inner axle CV to the driver side. If one spins differently than the other, than I may have located my issue. Another theory that I have, which may be bogus, is out of spec/out of round rotors from the machine job.. one could be out of balance with the other or there could be dirt etc between the hub and the rotor hat. It only became especially noticeable in May after my rotors were machined.. I hit the pot hole in April.

Though the highway vibration has only been here in April (cold temps) and October.

[midnitehour]

Thats pretty fast wear on the rotors, how's the brake pad?

any noticable vibration when braking?

[991.8l]

Thats pretty fast wear on the rotors, how's the brake pad?

any noticable vibration when braking?

They seem to have even wear, lots of meat left. Thinking of a seized front caliper?

Check out these noises I caught on video.. they happen if I press on the brakes very slightly. Have to listen carefully.

Inside the car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYN59z5kzHk

Outside the car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFH_TKrqjk


weird scraping noise.. but only when I apply the brake.. some metallic popping noises in there also. Only comes from the front passenger wheel.

[Hacker]

1. Yes alignment was done, I have the report at home I can post the results.

I know you're taking the car to the mechanic today, but if you still want help with troubleshooting, please post your before and after alignment results. That will give an indication of what was damaged after hitting the pothole. Also keep in mind that it's more complex to troubleshoot a double wishbone suspension. Thanks.

J.

[991.8l]

^ thanks sorry still have to dig it up. There wasn't any dramatic differences, and the car wasn't pulling.

I had a second look at the driveshaft last night, I grabbed a laser level and pointed it at the driveshaft while I spun it.. it pretty much checked out... I didn't see anything out of spec.

Its interesting how the driver side is a longer part than the passenger side... they cost the same. haha

Driver Side:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Acura/driveshaft1.jpg

Passenger Side:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Acura/driveshaft2.jpg

[991.8l]

I know you're taking the car to the mechanic today, but if you still want help with troubleshooting, please post your before and after alignment results. That will give an indication of what was damaged after hitting the pothole. Also keep in mind that it's more complex to troubleshoot a double wishbone suspension. Thanks.

J.

Here it is, looks like my front toe was out of spec:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/2K5TSX/Acura/alignment.jpg

[Hacker]

Any ideas from your mechanic?

The caster and setback values in the report suggest that the front left (driver) side hit an object (instead of the passenger side). Too bad the report doesn't give the SAI and included angle specifications for your car, because they are useful for troubleshooting bent parts:

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Diagnosing-a-Bent-Steering-Knuckle/A_109993/article.html

Since you have a laser level, you could try this to check for Symptom #1:

1. Raise the front end
2. Remove both tires
3. Mount the laser to a fixed location and point the beam at the outer edge of the brake rotor
4. Start the engine and shift into 1st or Drive.
5. See if something is out-of-round.
6. You could also try pointing the laser at the centre of one of the wheel studs and see if there is any deviation as they are rotating.
7. While the car is in gear, ask someone else to lightly apply the brakes to find out why you're getting that metal grinding noise. It's easier to check than driving down the street. :)

One last thing... check the tie-rod ends for play.

J.

[mikeweb]

The driveshafts are actually the same length, one of them connects to a midshaft which then connects to the transmission (due to transmission placement). Im also surprised that Honda didn't switch over the TSX to a front McPherson strut design as they started to implement it in 7gen civics, ect (2001+)

[Hacker]

Im also surprised that Honda didn't switch over the TSX to a front McPherson strut design as they started to implement it in 7gen civics, ect (2001+)

That's why it's still called an Acura TSX and not Honda TSX. :P

J.

[991.8l]

Any ideas from your mechanic?

The caster and setback values in the report suggest that the front left (driver) side hit an object (instead of the passenger side). Too bad the report doesn't give the SAI and included angle specifications for your car, because they are useful for troubleshooting bent parts:

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Diagnosing-a-Bent-Steering-Knuckle/A_109993/article.html

Since you have a laser level, you could try this to check for Symptom #1:

1. Raise the front end
2. Remove both tires
3. Mount the laser to a fixed location and point the beam at the outer edge of the brake rotor
4. Start the engine and shift into 1st or Drive.
5. See if something is out-of-round.
6. You could also try pointing the laser at the centre of one of the wheel studs and see if there is any deviation as they are rotating.
7. While the car is in gear, ask someone else to lightly apply the brakes to find out why you're getting that metal grinding noise. It's easier to check than driving down the street. :)

One last thing... check the tie-rod ends for play.

J.

Didn't get a chance to go to the mechanic on Friday.. few things came up.. prob two weeks from now. Some great advice there, will try it out when I have a chance and post the results. I was apprehensive of having the wheels spinning on the jack stands.. but with the wheels off its definitely not as dangerous :lol: A great idea.

When the time comes, I will have the hub and axles checked out with a run-out dial tool.. then i'll know for sure whats what. Everything should be within 0.1mm run out.

As for the brake noise, tsx club diagnosed that as the dust shield.. a lot of other guys have that issue.. may also be the brake hardware needs some lube. I'll get that all taken care of when I replace my rotors.

[991.8l]

Steering wheel vibration was very noticeable this morning.. I felt the dash and it was there.. also the driver side floor. I reached back and felt the rear floor and no vibration there.

Checked out this diagnoses chart:

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/vibechart.pdf

I've had all 3 things done this year, new tires, brakes resurfaced, and alignment.

Chart says only thing left is check suspension bushings and that everything is tight.. maybe its time to bring it back to Honda and bite the bullet. :(

[991.8l]

Any ideas from your mechanic?

The caster and setback values in the report suggest that the front left (driver) side hit an object (instead of the passenger side). Too bad the report doesn't give the SAI and included angle specifications for your car, because they are useful for troubleshooting bent parts:

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Diagnosing-a-Bent-Steering-Knuckle/A_109993/article.html

Since you have a laser level, you could try this to check for Symptom #1:

1. Raise the front end
2. Remove both tires
3. Mount the laser to a fixed location and point the beam at the outer edge of the brake rotor
4. Start the engine and shift into 1st or Drive.
5. See if something is out-of-round.
6. You could also try pointing the laser at the centre of one of the wheel studs and see if there is any deviation as they are rotating.
7. While the car is in gear, ask someone else to lightly apply the brakes to find out why you're getting that metal grinding noise. It's easier to check than driving down the street. :)

One last thing... check the tie-rod ends for play.

J.

Ok so I spent an hour last night doing the above. Nothing showed up on the rotor... but have a look at the rotation of the inner CV joints.. do they look normal? They look out of round to me while rotating... they also had some up&down play to them.


(Sorry about all the movement and the lack of light at some points)

Passenger Side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meigFrpjIoo

Driver Side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N7_iAzPrq8


Have a listen to the brake noise.. its definitely coming from the caliper. In the video you can see the outer brake pad is not contacting the rotor, but there is still a rotating squeak noise coming from the inner side.

Brake Noise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3GMVcw9zY

[Mike_Moss]

Bring it to a mechanic. In my opinion, what you're doing is a waste of time and dangerous.

[991.8l]

Bring it to a mechanic. In my opinion, what you're doing is a waste of time and dangerous.

Ya thats the plan, going on Saturday either way. Just trying to get a handle on whats going on.

[Hacker]

I saw a slight wobble on the CV shafts like you mentioned. But I asked one of my instructors at Centennial tonight and he said it's very rare to have a bent CV shaft unless the wheel had a side impact (e.g. T-bone collision). If it's a pothole, then it would be more likely to cause damage to the CV joint (not the shaft).

In the passenger side video I noticed something uneven (flat spot?) on the brake rotor hat. It's hard to see clearly, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

That creaking/squeaking noise sounds like something in the brake caliper needs lubrication.

Good luck on Saturday. Hopefully your mechanic can reproduce the symptoms when he goes for a test drive.

J.

[991.8l]

I saw a slight wobble on the CV shafts like you mentioned. But I asked one of my instructors at Centennial tonight and he said it's very rare to have a bent CV shaft unless the wheel had a side impact (e.g. T-bone collision). If it's a pothole, then it would be more likely to cause damage to the CV joint (not the shaft).

In the passenger side video I noticed something uneven (flat spot?) on the brake rotor hat. It's hard to see clearly, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

That creaking/squeaking noise sounds like something in the brake caliper needs lubrication.

Good luck on Saturday. Hopefully your mechanic can reproduce the symptoms when he goes for a test drive.

J.

Thanks going in tomorrow early around 8am :( to get it checked out. When I told the Mechanic my theory about the CV joints it sounded unlikely to him.. my car hasn't really had any of these symptoms.. other than number 5 maybe number 2.. which has improved quite a bit when I rotated my winter wheels from front to back.. still have that weird shaky feeling coming from the front end.

1. Clicking Noise when Turning
This is the most noticeable indication that something is wrong. While turning, the CV joint will make a popping or clicking sound repeatedly. This will be especially noticeable when making sharp turns at slow speeds as the clicking noise will get excruciatingly loud.

2. Vibration during Acceleration
Another very noticeable sign observed while driving is that the steering wheel will vibrate or shake heavily especially when accelerating. It is best to pull over or reduce speed and make it to a safe location and have it checked immediately.

3. Growing Humming Noise
This sign will most likely be in conjunction with vibration during increasing speed. While driving, the car will make a humming noise that will grow with acceleration and cease with deceleration.

4. Clunk Type Noise when Accelerating
This type of noise is experienced in the inner joints or outer joints of vehicles. This noise can also be the result of extreme backlash in differential gears. One good way to verify this symptom is to put the vehicle in reverse and accelerate. If the clunk is even more noticeable, then it's a sure sign the inner CV joint is bad.

5. Vibration at High Speeds
There could be many reasons for this vibration to occur such as an out of balance tire or faulty alignment. However, its occurrence in conjunction with any of the above symptoms should be regarded as a sure sign of a faulty CV joint.

[991.8l]

Update to this. Acura indicates there is play in the passenger side outer CV joint.. and recommends replacement. With OEM parts + labour.. somewhere north of $800 (Driveshaft Assembly Right 44305-SEA-N00 $657 list).

I'm waiting for it to get worse and show some of the typical signs of a bad CV joint before I spend the coin to replace with EMPI aftermarket driveshaft ($100 shipped).. at my local mechanic.

http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList.cfm?Acura/2005/TSX/Base/2.4L_L4/allB/Driveline_and_Axles/Axle_Shaft/Axle_Shaft_Assembly/pagenum1/tabS