My GAGT Failed Emissions

[slowbird]

I just got my emissions test done for the first time on my 2004 Grand Am GT.

I took it to a Canadian Tire I used to work at and it failed....the tech even made sure to warm the car up a bit before testing it and it still failed.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/187/etest.th.jpg (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=etest.jpg)

I just did a tune up a little over 1,000kms ago (Plugs, wires, Air Filter, O2 Sensor, cleaned the MAF) and I sea-foamed the car about 5,000kms ago.

The Tech said that judging by the results it barely failed.

The first thing I think I should try is dumping a can of one of those Gauranteed to pass stuff as well as switching to a more Ethanol based Gas (Currently using Ethanol Free Shell V-Power).

Anyone know a lot about emissions can give me some insight please?

[dead_cactus]

You didn't fail by much. I would try the guaranteed to pass stuff and make sure you take the car for a nice run before the test.

[slowbird]

That's what I was thinking also.

Was also thinking a new PCV (even though mine seems to be fine) a fresh oil change, the can of "Guarantee to pass" and a tank full of Ultra 94 should get me that extra bit.

I hope :)

[dead_cactus]

+1 on the oil change, I've heard it helps as well. I've always done an oil change, gone for a nice spirited drive and keep the car running until the emissions test and my numbers are always very low.

[slowbird]

+1 on the oil change, I've heard it helps as well. I've always done an oil change, gone for a nice spirited drive and keep the car running until the emissions test and my numbers are always very low.

Well the car was run before I went and the Tech had it sitting there on the rollers (not in gear) while keeping the revs up to get everything warmed up.

I hear that the oil change helps but I can't figure out why exactly? Yea if the oil is old it can cause a little strain on the motor but I'm halfway through my oil change interval and I run Mobil1 Synthetic.

[Royson]

Does the Grand Am require premium? I've never understood how running premium helps lower emissions.

I'd expect running the wrong octane would end of screwing up the emissions results?

[slowbird]

A Stock Grand Am GT does not but mine does ever since I had the PCM tuned.

91 octane is currently required.

[Azi]

with a high HC, it seems like the car is running lean. do you have any vac leaks? maybe cleaning the MAF screwed something up, or perhaps you need some injector cleaner.

[slowbird]

The MAF was flithy so I assume cleaning it helped.

I thought high Hydro-carbons meant running too rich?

[myprotege5]

ur lean is there a air leak some where

[CulRidr]

^^Ditto, I thought running lean meant running hot meaning high NOx?

[slowbird]

The tech said the high Hydro-carbons meant running a tad rich....so what is it....lean or rich?

I found this on the internet:

Possible Causes of High Hydrocarbon (HC) Emissions

Hydrocarbons relate to unburned fuel. You may logically think that must mean that the engine is getting too much fuel. However, that is only one of many possibilities ranging from fuel problems, to electrical problems, to internal engine problems such as piston rings that can cause HC emissions to be excessive.

In order to pinpoint the cause of excessive HC emissions, the following systems (if applicable) will need to be checked, usually in the order shown below:

I doubt I have an air leak somewhere...the car runs well and I check the engine over often. The MAF is ported and that could cause it to run a tad lean I think. :confused:

[TheMAN]

with a high HC, it seems like the car is running lean. do you have any vac leaks? maybe cleaning the MAF screwed something up, or perhaps you need some injector cleaner.
high HC means its running rich
lean will lead to high NOx

SOMETHING is causing the PCM to richen the fuel mixture though
perhaps a conservative ignition timing or bad sensors that could lead to this

you should also consider running induction cleaning to decarbon the engine and professional injector cleaning service (true way to do it short of removing the injectors for overhaul is to disconnect the fuel line, disabling the fuel pump, then running cleaning solvent directly into the fuel rail until it is emptied out by the engine idling on it)

[991.8l]

A Stock Grand Am GT does not but mine does ever since I had the PCM tuned.

91 octane is currently required.

Who tuned your PCM? Maybe it's running rich because its not tuned properly... you said this is your first e-test.. I bet on a stock tune running reg 87 fuel..you'd be fine.

[slowbird]

Who tuned your PCM? Maybe it's running rich because its not tuned properly... you said this is your first e-test.. I bet on a stock tune running reg 87 fuel..you'd be fine.

Thanks Sherlock....OF COURSE the car would have passed Emissions if it was stock.....but then it wouldn't be running high 14's and where's the fun in that?!

The PCM was Tuned by Milzy Motorsports and I haven't heard of anyone else having E-Test issues...but most other GA owners with my mods aren't seeing the same performance I am.

I can't put my stock PCM back in because then it'll throw the rear O2 code and I will fail the visual check when my CEL is seen.

I can get a new bung drilled in the exhaust to allow the 2nd O2 but I don't want to try that till I've run out of easier and less expensive options.

I'm curious what I could do to acheive better combustion to get rid of the extra gases?

....and it's not like it's running PIG RICH....the Exhaust tips are always clean and don't have any carbon or soot issues....the exhaust looks and smells clean and my plugs looked good when I changed them. :confused:

[midnitehour]

fresh oil and a bottle of gauranteed to pass..

if i can pass so can you

[slowbird]

fresh oil and a bottle of gauranteed to pass..

if i can pass so can you

Sweet! :D

[dead_cactus]

Motorvac service was always popular among GP owners. Might be worth a shot.

[slowbird]

Motorvac service was always popular among GP owners. Might be worth a shot.

Well I seafoam my car regularly and I rarely get alot of smoke out of it...I think everything in there is unusually clean.

[MarkHarris]

1 - methyl hydrate.

2 - unplug an injector.


I play with a lot of failed cars. your car barely failed. you would prolly be fine just running some methyl hydrate in the tank instead of gasoline

[CulRidr]

unplug an injector? Wouldn't that cause misfire in that cylinder?

[MarkHarris]

just do it for the test. cut some fuel out

[slowbird]

The UIM covers all injectors...can't unplug 'em

[MarkHarris]

just run the methyl hydrate then. the numbers will improve dramatically

[slowbird]

just run the methyl hydrate then. the numbers will improve dramatically


Just buy some from Crappy Tire?

How much do I add to how much gas?

[CrazyCaker]

You can get a 4L jug of it cheap at Home Depot, in the paint section.

[MarkHarris]

run your car till the gas light comes on. then throw a jug of methyl hydrate in and then run the test

[slowbird]

run your car till the gas light comes on. then throw a jug of methyl hydrate in and then run the test

Run straight Methanol?!

[MarkHarris]

you will be pleased with the results

[slowbird]

:confused: oookay

[Tw1tCh]

you will be pleased with the results

is this safe? :confused:

[Mike_Moss]

I've been curious about this methyl hydrate thing...when I Googled I came across a Mustang forum stating different mixtures. Never said run it alone though.

[slowbird]

I've been curious about this methyl hydrate thing...when I Googled I came across a Mustang forum stating different mixtures. Never said run it alone though.

I know about the injection of it....since it is basically Methanol.

But dumping it into the tank straight seems strange...I may add a liter of it or something.

[MarkHarris]

it wont harm anything. the tank isnt bone dry. I said add it when the gas light comes on.

after you run the test go to the gas station and fill up...

the numbers that I have changed with this stuff is unbelievable

[991.8l]

I've been curious about this methyl hydrate thing...when I Googled I came across a Mustang forum stating different mixtures. Never said run it alone though.


Found that also. :yes:

http://www.cmoc.ca/forums/t3233/

[DuRWooD]

Methylhydrate made my nox really high, so I cut the front springs, so it wouldn't fit on the dyno, and only got tested for HC, and CO. Worked like a charm :) F'ed my suspension too! :D

[slowbird]

So what I have done to the car is as follows:

-Fresh Oil Change
-New PCV Valve (Old one was still good)
-A tank ran to empty with a bottle of Gauranteed to Pass
-Filled up with Sunoco 94 (was running V-Power 91)
-Added another bottle of GTP when tank was half full.
-Ran the tank till the light came on, added a liter of Methal Hydrate.
-Refilled with Sunoco 94

I have my re-test in 1 hour

[dead_cactus]

Good luck. I'm curious now to see the results with the GTP and methyl hydrate.

[slowbird]

Failed again....hydro carbons went up.

[Myk]

Guaranteed to Pass...NOT!

http://www.morethings.com/fan/borat/borat-20.jpg

[slowbird]

I hate you

[CrazyCaker]

Of course it did, you put 94 in! HC is from unburnt fuel. If it was already high why would you use an even higher octane? You should have put in 89, or even 87.

[CrazyCaker]

You can also solve the HC issue with a new cat.

[slowbird]

Of course it did, you put 94 in! HC is from unburnt fuel. If it was already high why would you use an even higher octane? You should have put in 89, or even 87.

I put in 94 because it is the fuel with the most Ethanol in it...and Ethanol is said to burn cleaner.

....and as mentioned before....I cannot run anything lower than 91 due to my tuned PCM.

You can also solve the HC issue with a new cat.

According to the Techs I have spoken to, yes that would help but it isn't necessary since my NO and CO are so incredibly low.

I need to get the car scanned and see whether my coils aren't firing as efficently as they used to or if something else is wrong.

I could pass emissions if I just put everything back to stock (ECM, CAT, MAF etc etc) but that is very very last resort.

[CrazyCaker]

I put in 94 because it is the fuel with the most Ethanol in it...and Ethanol is said to burn cleaner.

....and as mentioned before....I cannot run anything lower than 91 due to my tuned PCM.


But dude, the higher octane = more fuel resistance, which means it's harder to ignite. You are not doing the etest in boost! And running a octane below 91 will not effect your tune if you are simply only filling the tank a 1/4 (or even less) just for the etest. After the test top the tank up with 94.

[CrazyCaker]

Another solution, if you want to still use the higher octane, is to advance your timing slightly for the test.

[slowbird]

But dude, the higher octane = more fuel resistance, which means it's harder to ignite. You are not doing the etest in boost! And running a octane below 91 will not effect your tune if you are simply only filling the tank a 1/4 (or even less) just for the etest. After the test top the tank up with 94.

Won't putting in anything lower than 91 cause the engine to maybe start knocking or pinging? The Knock sensor will see this then reduce ignition timing and fuel efficiency?

....and I cannot change the timing....it is all computer controlled and I don't have the tuning equipment or software.

[CrazyCaker]

It shouldn't ping at the speed the etest is done at, unless you are running some crazy compression ratio.

[slowbird]

Well it looks like the guys at Canadian Tire are going to try and get me a conditional pass.

We will see how well that works out.

[slowbird]

WOOT!!!!

Conditional Pass!

[MarkHarris]

shoulda just ran the methylhydrate jug in the gas light...

oh well, congrats on the conditional, next year do the methyl hydrate

[slowbird]

I tried running methal hydrate with ethanol gas and my re-test came back with more Hydrocarbons :-(

[MarkHarris]

shouldnt have added the gas

[TheMAN]

Guaranteed to Pass...NOT!

http://www.morethings.com/fan/borat/borat-20.jpg
it failed because he royally ***ked up and not follow what you're supposed to do
you don't put that shit in and run it down... you put that shit in and go test right away!

[TheMAN]

I put in 94 because it is the fuel with the most Ethanol in it...and Ethanol is said to burn cleaner.

....and as mentioned before....I cannot run anything lower than 91 due to my tuned PCM.



According to the Techs I have spoken to, yes that would help but it isn't necessary since my NO and CO are so incredibly low.

I need to get the car scanned and see whether my coils aren't firing as efficently as they used to or if something else is wrong.

I could pass emissions if I just put everything back to stock (ECM, CAT, MAF etc etc) but that is very very last resort.
ethanol does NOT burn cleaner
it's another one of those tree hugger urban myths

if your car wasn't originally tuned for it, it's NOT going to burn "cleaner" :rolleyes:
ethanol has LOWER energy quotient and thus requires MORE fuel in a car that is tuned for "real" gas
ethanol acts as an engine cleaner, nothing more... ethanol does nothing but bad shit to a car

if you wanted to not ***k up your air fuel ratios, you should've stuck to the shell "gold" and just add a couple of gallons of toluene to bump up the octane... this is assuming the reason for your high HC, high NOx was because your ECU had overly aggressive ignition maps and caused your engine to ping, thus causing your knock sensor to tell your ECU to dump fuel
octane is the knock resistance ability, NOT energy quotient... if your engine was pinging, raising octane or backing off the ignition timing would've helped
furthermore, if it was still doing that shit, then you needed to decarbon the engine

[TheMAN]

shouldnt have added the gas
he should've listened to you and do EXACTLY what you said instead of cooking up some crazy shit to do

[MarkHarris]

^ agreed

[slowbird]

it failed because he royally ***ked up and not follow what you're supposed to do
you don't put that shit in and run it down... you put that shit in and go test right away!

Incorrect. Read the box.



if you wanted to not ***k up your air fuel ratios, you should've stuck to the shell "gold" and just add a couple of gallons of toluene to bump up the octane... this is assuming the reason for your high HC, high NOx was because your ECU had overly aggressive ignition maps and caused your engine to ping, thus causing your knock sensor to tell your ECU to dump fuel
octane is the knock resistance ability,

That is another incorrect assumption. I had extremely LOW NOx.
....and bumping UP the Octane would make the emissions worse since it burns slower.

he should've listened to you and do EXACTLY what you said instead of cooking up some crazy shit to do

In my opinion (and the opinion of every single other person I spoke to) adding that much Methal Hydrate to a tank with so little gas is the "crazy shit to do."


I need the car scanned and see if a sensor is wrong somewhere....if there's nothing wrong then I need to look at the PCM Tune.

Until then I got my Conditional Pass and my sticker for 2 years :)

[MarkHarris]

ive done that methyl hydrate mixture to dozens of cars...

ahhhh forget it. congrats on conditional

[slowbird]

ive done that methyl hydrate mixture to dozens of cars...

ahhhh forget it. congrats on conditional

I appreciate the advice...the reason why I didn't just do as you said is because:

a) I don't know you
b) Your post count is low
c) Your post are very brief (in this thread) and have no explanations....just: "Do this."
d) Everyone I have spoken to plus a few in this thread have felt concerned towards your method.
e) I can't find anything online talking about any do's or don'ts regarding dumping Methal Hydrate into the tank.

Yea yea...it's frustrating cause I didn't do as you asked and dumped a liter of Methal Hydrate into an almost empty tank. But you have to understand why I didn't just take your word for it.

[kevcol74]

^ Then you should have asked TheMAN. And if you don't like people saying "Do this..." without an explanation, how hard is it to ask "Why?"

But hey, you got your "free pass", so congrats....

[slowbird]

^ Then you should have asked TheMAN. And if you don't like people saying "Do this..." without an explanation, how hard is it to ask "Why?"

But hey, you got your "free pass", so congrats....

Why would I ask TheMAN...judging by his last post I wouldn't trust his information either.

....and going through the thread I see why I didn't listen to MH word for word:

He told me to unplug an Injector before the test...I was wary of his advice after that.

[CrazyCaker]

....and going through the thread I see why I didn't listen to MH word for word:

He told me to unplug an Injector before the test...I was wary of his advice after that.

LOL, for real :p. That sounded pretty f'd up to me too.

[kevcol74]

Why would I ask TheMAN...judging by his last post I wouldn't trust his information either.

....and going through the thread I see why I didn't listen to MH word for word:

He told me to unplug an Injector before the test...I was wary of his advice after that.

Do what you want man, but bottom line is, you didn't go by either MH or TheMAN's advice, and you failed.... Personally, I'll listen to TheMAN. If you don't know his qualifications, maybe ask someone, or better yet, him.

BTW, its pretty weak to judge someone's knowledge by their post count, especially when you ask advice on a GA in a Protege forum.

[slowbird]

BTW, its pretty weak to judge someone's knowledge by their post count, especially when you ask advice on a GA in a Protege forum.

I never said I don't think he knows what he is talking about because his post count is low....I said that was one of the reasons I didn't particularly trust his recommendation.

...and asking about a vehicle that is not a Pro isn't uncommon here. I have been a member of the Toronto Protege Club for awhile now. A good chunk of my family is here, I have tagged my share of cars, been to many events and social gatherings. I have met a few good people here and I was hoping to here some opinions from them.

THAT is why I ask advice for my GA in a Protege Forum. :yes:

Now that I got my stickers I gotta start fiddling around with the car and see what is causing the issue.

[MarkHarris]

im not mad u didnt follow my adivce, i was offereing a solution. not doing it was your choice.

as far as unplugging an injector, i forgot briefly that we were talking about the grand am.

if anybody actually gets the chance to screw around on an emissions dyno in training mode, unplug an injector on a car where its possible (like the pro), and you will see why i recommended it.

like i said, Im not here to convince you to do as i said, you asked advice and I gave it.

Thanks kevcol for the input, its appreciated

[slowbird]

im not mad u didnt follow my adivce, i was offereing a solution. not doing it was your choice.

as far as unplugging an injector, i forgot briefly that we were talking about the grand am.

if anybody actually gets the chance to screw around on an emissions dyno in training mode, unplug an injector on a car where its possible (like the pro), and you will see why i recommended it.

like i said, Im not here to convince you to do as i said, you asked advice and I gave it.

Thanks kevcol for the input, its appreciated

It's cool guy....and as I said before I DO appreciate the advice. :)

[pro5dippin]

ya i did that unplugged an injector back in the day in addition to unplug the coolant temp sensor- before i unplugged i had miserable numbers, after unplugged everything it passed just barely-but still a pass

[MarkHarris]

^ good stuff!

[pro5dippin]

you can try heating the cat with a torch too lol

[Mike_Moss]

...GA in a Protege forum.We have a General Automotive because we do have quite a bit of non-Protege owning members who we appreciate. Not all of the information at TOP is Protege-specific.

[TheMAN]

Incorrect. Read the box.

then why didn't you follow the instructions EXACTLY?
also, not all "emission pass" bottles are the same... how they are used differ from brand to brand

That is another incorrect assumption. I had extremely LOW NOx.
....and bumping UP the Octane would make the emissions worse since it burns slower.

then why was your car failing?
low octane + aggressive tune = run rich when ECU sees pings

In my opinion (and the opinion of every single other person I spoke to) adding that much Methal Hydrate to a tank with so little gas is the "crazy shit to do."

if it was so crazy to do, then why did you ignore what the bottle of "guaranteed to pass" says?

I need the car scanned and see if a sensor is wrong somewhere....if there's nothing wrong then I need to look at the PCM Tune.

Until then I got my Conditional Pass and my sticker for 2 years :)
good for you
next time listen to people who do this for a living instead of your friends who says running mostly methal hydrate was crazy
your justifications of not listening to mark simply due to "low post count" and "no explanation" is just about in line with a 5 year old asking why he's told to go to his room... "why?".... "just do it!"

[thekid]

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Matt to want to understand why people were suggesting what they were. Because if someone happend to be playing with him, and he tried something he read on the internet, and it ***ked up his car, we'd all be giving him a hard time for not doing his research and just doing what someone on the internet said.

So he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, he tried to do his research couldn't find enough info, other than people saying trust me with no background as to the why or how it works.

[CrazyCaker]

next time just get a "dirty" etest.

[slowbird]

Thanks Brian.


Joe: I know! Right?

[MazdaMike02]

70% of the people who posted in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

A new cat would not solve the problem because the problem lies elsewhere. If the cat was bad all numbers would be over limit or close to. UNLESS the o2 is bad giving false results cause its causing a rich condition. Now the HC can be too high for many reasons like: vacuum leaks, ignition system malfunction, faulty ECU or tune in his case, faulty air injection system, failed o2 sensor. Could be an internal engine problem as well. It can in some cases be a failed catalytic convertor but that would mean your o2 is bad as well causing the ecu to dump fuel giving you false results.

Nox is produced at 2700 degrees Celsius which is a lean condition.
HC is produced when the fuel molecules are not completely burned during the combustion process and can be caused for many reasons not just running rich.

Methyl Hydrate makes the car run hotter which will increase NOX numbers, and from my experience it doesn't work. But I tried it on a car with a bad cat and it did absolutely nothing, it may depend on the condition. I wouldn't recommend using it as a fuel though.

Guaranteed to Pass should NOT be in the gas tank when testing it will severely alter the results and you WILL fail. It is designed to be used at full capacity and run the tank til its nearly dry.

ANY fuel system treatment will make you fail.

Most induction cleaners if left over will make you fail.

An oil change will help numbers but not that much. I would recommend doing an Induction clean, fuel system clean, tune up. You may also play with your timing, depending on your situation. On my dads truck we advanced the timing with 87 and it passed no problem.

A Check Engine Light will not fail any visual inspection, its not required. Only thing about that is at the end of the test the computer asks if the emissions malfunction indicator was on during the test and on your sheet it will say please get it checked out. If any place rejects you for a check engine light call the MTO, reach Protect Air and complain. The facility will get a warning and stop or get a suspension.

You can't get a fake e-test you will get caught by the MTO. There is several encrypted barcodes on the VIR that contain vehicle information like VIN, model etc.

[pro5dippin]

sorry to burst ur bubble its easy to get a fake e-test

[slowbird]

x2

Dirty Certy and Fake E-Tests.

They aren't really "Fake"....they just run another a similar vehicle on the rollers that they know is clean and they say it was the one that they are giving the altered E-Test to.

[MarkHarris]

#1 - lol @ fake e-tests not working..

#2 - there is no substitute for experience..

[pro5dippin]

MOST of the people who posted in this thread absolutely know what they are talking about. I ON THE OTHER HAND DONT HAVE A CLUE BUT I'LL GIVE IT A SHOT ANYWAYS

A new cat would not solve the problem because the problem lies elsewhere. If the cat was bad all numbers would be over limit or close to. UNLESS the o2 is bad giving false results cause its causing a rich condition. Now the HC can be too high for many reasons like: vacuum leaks, ignition system malfunction, faulty ECU or tune in his case, faulty air injection system, failed o2 sensor. Could be an internal engine problem as well. It can in some cases be a failed catalytic convertor but that would mean your o2 is bad as well causing the ecu to dump fuel giving you false results.

Nox is produced at 2700 degrees Celsius which is a lean condition.
HC is produced when the fuel molecules are not completely burned during the combustion process and can be caused for many reasons not just running rich.

Methyl Hydrate makes the car run hotter which will increase NOX numbers, and from my experience it doesn't work. But I tried it on a car with a bad cat and it did absolutely nothing, it may depend on the condition. I wouldn't recommend using it as a fuel though.

Guaranteed to Pass should NOT be in the gas tank when testing it will severely alter the results and you WILL fail. It is designed to be used at full capacity and run the tank til its nearly dry.

ANY fuel system treatment will make you fail.

Most induction cleaners if left over will make you fail.

An oil change will help numbers but not that much. I would recommend doing an Induction clean, fuel system clean, tune up. You may also play with your timing, depending on your situation. On my dads truck we advanced the timing with 87 and it passed no problem.

A Check Engine Light will not fail any visual inspection, its not required. Only thing about that is at the end of the test the computer asks if the emissions malfunction indicator was on during the test and on your sheet it will say please get it checked out. If any place rejects you for a check engine light call the MTO, reach Protect Air and complain. The facility will get a warning and stop or get a suspension.

You can't get a fake e-test you will get caught by the MTO. There is several encrypted barcodes on the VIR that contain vehicle information like VIN, model etc.

you've only posted up 5 times and ur already telling us we dont have a clue welcome to the club i fixed your post for you.

[kevcol74]

you've only posted up 5 times and ur already telling us we dont have a clue welcome to the club i fixed your post for you.

lol Nice!:goody:

[MarkHarris]

:p:p:p