2002 P5 Hydroplaning.....Very Scary!

[wjcostley]

While driving home from PA yesterday on I-90 during moderate rain at 110 km/h I encountered some serious hydroplaning. My car has 20,000 km on it. the rain was just heavy enough to require the wipers on constant(slow) but not heavy enough to affect visibility. On several occasions (on cruise) the engine RPM momentarily jumped up, and on other occasions, when I was passing or being passed I could feel the car shifting sideways as if it had hit black ice in winter. I had checked tire pressure before leaving and all tires were 31.5-32.0 psi cold.

Has anyone else experienced this with the factory equipped Dunlops?

The factory label calls for 32 psi front/rear. Should I go higher, and how much?

Has anyone replaced tires because of this problem, and if so what tire did you use and how did it improve the situation with respect to hydroplaning?

I am an experienced driver (45 years) and have been driving similar type cars for more than 25 years now and never experience hydroplaning like this before at 100-110 km/h. I had an 87 Integra for 11 years and even with old tires I rarely felt any hydroplaning unless there was very heavy rain.

I have noticed that these Dunlops have been generally crap for traction and stopping on wet roads and in snow

Any insights would be most appreciated as I do a lot of Interstate driving in the U.S. as well as on the 401 and I feel that the P5 with my current tires is very unsafe in rainy highway driving and can only get worse as the tires wear.

[rowan]

As you noticed .. the stock Dunlops are pretty bad in the rain.
Whatever you do, don't raise the tire pressures in the wet as that will only make it worse. Slightly lower pressure could get you some more contact patch, but will also feel a bit more sloppy when turning.

There are plenty of other tires that are great for wet driving. Usually they'll have a directional pattern like Dunlop SP9000 or Toyo T1-S.

[MP5Navy]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wjcostley @ May 21 2003,8:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On several occasions (on cruise) the engine RPM momentarily jumped up, and on other occasions, when I was passing or being passed I could feel the car shifting sideways as if it had hit black ice in winter.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Excuseme but you call yourself an experienced driver of 45 years and yet you choose to engage cruise control in rainy weather?

Stock dunlops do hydroplane but there is no way in hell that you should be on cruise in adverse conditions.

[wjcostley]

re:

&quot;excuseme but you call yourself an experienced driver of 45 years and yet you choose to engage cruise control in rainy weather?

Stock dunlops do hydroplane but there is no way in hell that you should be on cruise in adverse conditions.&quot;

EXCUSE ME...But did I describe adverse conditions????

I think not! and when I made this post I was asking for the insight and experience of others who may have also encountered the same thing,....... not the rudness and immaturity of a  &quot;know it all&quot; who has likely not yet learned one percent of what I have chosen to forget.

Cruise control is no different than holding the accelerator pedal in a fixed position with your foot and does not create an rpm jump, it is the loss of friction resulting from the layer of water that has come between the road surface and the tire's contact patch because of a combination of insufficient psi on the contact patch from the mass of the car and available channels for the surface water on the road  to disperse resulting in an upward water pressure that is greater, thus lifting the tire's contact patch off the road surface. Of course I'm sure that you covered all of that in the Physics 101 course of your Engineering degree

[Action Jackson]

The hydroplaning is one of the reasons why I'm thinking about getting new tires in this thread:

http://msg.toprotege.com/cgi-bin....;t=6294 (http://msg.toprotege.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=6294)

A bonus is that they have better wear characteristics [360 versus 300] than the stock tires.

[rowan]

The difference between having cruise control on and holding your foot on the accelerator is that you would feel the change in the engine and know enough to back off .. whereas the cruise system just keeps on it. So it just makes the situation worse.

[wjcostley]

Rowan

Thank you for your comments. They are appreciated. I do agree with what you have to say on cruise control and it should not be used particularly when hydroplaning is a possibility.

I do not agree that tire pressure should not be raised however. Traction and braking I agree are negatively affected by increased pressure but hydroplaning is not as the total load on each tire is concentrated on a smaller area which has a positive effect on dispersing the surface water and preventing hydroplaning.

In all of the small cars that I have owned, I have never encountered a tire that hydroplanes as easily as these Dunlops, and replacing them seems to be the best idea from what I am hearing so far.

The problem is easily solved by just driving slower in the rain, but then when you are on most Interstates or the 401 all the 18 wheelers are going faster, and you will constantly have them just a few feet behind and mad at you until they pass. One needs to always drive at their pace regardless, so I think that for the driving that I do, I need to go to a higher pressure until I can determine an appropriate replacement.

Although I do not post very often, I do check this board frequently as I am very fond of my P5, and I do appreciate the positive attitude and willingnes that most have to share insights and personal experiences with the P5 to help others and I have learned much about my car from this messageboard.

Thank you

[feedb4ck]

just for my input -

I've driven my car in all sorts of weather - basically every day for over a year now... almost every day on a highway - usually the gardiner, where there tends to be a nice collection of water on the highway cuz the drainage sucks.

I'm on the stock dunlops - and I've had some minor hydroplaning issues, but nothing that can't be controlled.
I've never really concerned myself with the tire pressure - it's always generally in the proper area, but i don't check it every time i drive.

All i'm saying is i hear people complaing about these tires in the rain and in the snow, and I for one have not had any problems that with them that I haven't had with other cars/tires, or that I didn't cause by doing something stoopid - like 130 in the snow... but that was to get a feel for the way the car handles at higher speeds in the snow.

This is just my 2 cents. (which is rapidly closing in on 2 cents American)

Don't know if this helps or anything, but whatever, i just wanted to post.

[Bumble G]

I've experienced the hydroplaning with the stockers. I can't recall a car I've driven with stock &quot;all season&quot; tires that didn't hydroplane. I've only been driving for 12 years now but I've driven quite a few (20 to 30) cars of all makes and models with factory tires.

My last car I changed the stock tires after only 2 summer seasons. They were the WORST tire I ever had the misfortune to drive on. (bridgstone re92)

Non stock tires that I used/driven on and liked.

Khumo 712's (summer only)- great in the rain. they only hydroplane when going threw bigger puddles. yet the car still tracks strait.

Dunlop W10's (summer only)- better than the khumo's (in my experience)and would probably get them for my P5 when I need tires. They never hydroplaned in the rain. Only once when I put the car over some water that was traversing the road. The water was pouring off a hillside so it was moving kinda fast over the roadway.

[03bluP5]

Hey Wjcostley:

Good to know there is another mature member (over 40 :-) that enjoys his P5 as much as I do! We are few and far between in this forum, although anyone will admit to seeing some &quot;mature&quot; people driving P5's around (but not with necessary Zoom Zoom decals and Ractive Fireball like mine :-)

I had a 2002 P5 with stock Dunlops and don't recall a hydroplaning issue (were you driving on those rain grooves that north-eastern US states are famous for?). Mind you, I only put on 17,000 km before trading (including my winter driving on Michelin Pilot Alpins) and they still had lots of tread. I would have noticed hydroplaning for sure, as I'm a former motorcyclist (and instructor) who's very &quot;in tune&quot; with the characteristics and idiosynchroses (sp?) of my vehicles.

My current 2003 P5 never had the opportunity to present this, as when I switched from my winter (designer) tires in April, I had new Khumo Ecsta 712 205/45/16's installed on my white powdercoated OEM alloys. Those Dunlops were replaced with 4000 km on them; barely broke in.

I wondered how good (or bad) the Dunlops really were but didn't push the limits of the car. I always respected Dunlop motorcycle rubber but didn't know much about their passenger vehicle offerings. I don't believe they are praised much by fellow P5'ers. I do recall Michelin XGT's on my '91 Accord that scared me a few times on dry highway access ramps. That car would occasionally hop sideways and there wasn't even much body roll. I'm sure Bridgestone Potenzas would have performed better, but Honda enthusiasts tend to stand behind Michelin (designer tires in my opinion.)

I do like the Khumos (thanks to peoples' reviews in the forum) and recommend them. They are grippy and actually look more aesthetically pleasing on the car. They are reasonably priced, especially for those in TO. (always a deal waiting in TO, except for insurance! :-) However, you need a set of winter wheels, as these would not be suitable for snow/ice.

Hope that helps, although I didn't address your concerns on hydroplaning.

Cheers, Mark  http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[rowan]

I hydroplaned doing a right-hand turn at 30 Km/h on the SP5000M's when they had about 13,000 Km on them. And they were at 40 psi all around. hehe. That was kinda fun except there were other cars around http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Action Jackson]

After I changed my stock air pressures to 40 psi front and 37 psi rear for a dry setup, I find that this also helps wet weather grip today and last night.

I'm sliding around a lot less. So far my car has about 2800 km's on it.

Theoretically, having higher front air pressures than the rears [assuming both front and rear were the same to begin with and the same sized tires] should cause them to &quot;slide/understeer&quot; more.

This setup shouldn't help wet grip.

Go figure. http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif