mod's screwing me for insurence

[taxmasta]

yea well since i got hit... my insurence company got pics of my car and sent a guy to inspect it. now they wanna put me into a new bracket because i was lieing to them

ii have a clean record as far as they know
i cant switch companys due to a suspended licence in the past year

im already paying 5100 a year now they wanna boost it

reasons being

1. lowered ( main reason )
2. exaust
3. spoiler belive it or not

imagin what my new rates will be...
il tell ya tomorow when i find out

[ken]

WOW! $5100 a year?!?! That's crazy! Your insurance payments are more than my car payments + insurance combined! Too bad you can't switch companies...

[Eds mp5]

Hmmm i warned you. I feel really bad for ya. Im in the same boat right now Mark. Supposedly you will now be put in "FACILITY" it is the highest level because they don't have anywhere where to put cars that are lowered.

FACILITY - Altered vehical rule!
vehicle(s) physically or mechanically altered in any of the following manner:
a)Those whose contours (body shapes) have been molded or changed in any significant fashion from the original manufacturer's design.
b) those where the center of gravity or normal body 'level' has been materially changed
c)Those equipped with non-standard accelerating devices or any other equipment designed for unusual performance.
d) An automobile with an engine, which is not one available from the manufacturer as a standard option engine for that year and model automobile.
e) those equipped with extra-wide tread tires designed and normally used for racing.

So there you have it. A little open ended isn't it. According to Reactive their intake increases horsepower does that mean that you should now be placed under facility?

I have wider tires on my car than stock, they are Z rated, usually used for high performance vehicles, does that mean that i qualify for section e?

Question B? if you get your car lowered from the dealer does that mean that this section applies?

section A.... what constitutes "significant fashion" a big spoiler? new bumper? combat kit?

I have been on the phone with the insurance people for that last 2 months trying to figure out the best way to get around the situation. It seems as soon as you lower your car you are NOT insured by any company.

Any thoughts? does anyone have any answers for either myself or Mark?

Thanks

Ed

[jali-p5]

d'oh!!  i wonder how my insurance is going to take it when i put on my coilovers.......hehehehe.......hopefully i can have a very clean record *knocks on wood* so that i don't have to worry about the insurance......

what's the going rate under facility??   http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[03bluP5]

This is some scary stuff - makes me glad I don't want to lower my car.
Hopefully we don't end up shafted like the Civic and Integra drivers. As far as I've heard, they are paying the highest rates, at least in the US. My older buddy who just picked up a stock '98 Civic SI was complaining that his insurance jumped ~$300/yr over his '90 Accord EXR.
$5100/yr??? I can honestly say I'd give up driving if I had to pay that...

Cheers, Mark http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[ken]

I'm not siding with the insurance companies here but I can see where they are coming from. Their business all boils down to mathamatical formulas (based on statistics/probabilities) to come up with a cost for you (the driver) to mitigate your risk.  If you alter your car such that their statistics can no longer be reliably used to measure their exposure, they have no way to properly assess what level of risk you present to them.  For example - if you lower your car (change the center of gravity), the roll over, crash and safety statistics that they have - which are used in calculating your premium - for your particular vehicle are useless to them.  I'm not suggesting lying to your insurer, but you may want to find a new company when you are able to and one that doesn't ask so many questions about your car's set up...

[Sky_high]

And now that is why I like the sleeper look!!! (Even though my car is still slow).

[Eds mp5]

That is a valid point ken, however how often have you seen SUV's on the side of the road flipped over, do you think that possibily they are not at the right height, how often do you see a lowered civic in the ditch upside down.  not too often.  

Secondly, it would be fine to side with the insurance if for one they didn't have such rediculous rates, why is it that if a dealer lowers your car when you buy it new (one of the options that many dealers now sell becuase it makes them more money) it is 'legal' in the insurance companies eyes because it was sold as OEM, however myself who maybe work in a dealership as a mechanic am not aloowed to do the same?  Does the mechanic do a better job?  perhaps, but once again a double standard.

Also why is it that if i build a kit car in the garage out of fibreglass and plastic i can get insurance for that car, however if i modify the original charachteristics of my car from a reputable manufacture it is all of a sudden not acceptable?  

Why is it that the Insurance companies think that if you lower your car you will cause more damage?  if i hit an suv regardless of if my car is lowered or not the bumpers are still not aligned?  what is the difference.  Plus we all know to replace OEM equipment is a lot more than buy original for example. OEM fog light for P5 $150.00  Piaa head lights approx $100.. hmmm  looks like a savings there!

I Do see the point with certain things like NOS and people who street race, however once again it is not the Job of the insurance company to try and act like a traffic cop, there job is to insure people not think every yonge guy with a civic is automatically a street racer and an idiot! Same reason why when you get pulled over by the police the police who can see that your car is lowered don't say.... OH your car is lowered we know that no insurance company will insure you so therefore your insurance at the present state is invalid therefore you are technically driving with NO insurance?  Is that not correct?  

All i am asking for is a legitate rate for my insurance. The mazda speed protege comes with a turbo charger.  If i put a turbo charger on myprotege it is not insurable because it is not spec'ed by the OEM and all of a sudden it is catagorized as high risk, when the mazda speed protege is not, they just say oh the turbo cause 5000 more above a normal protege so now your car is 5000 more expensive and you will be covered.

The problem is that all enthusuasts have been tainted by a few idiots.  If people are going to race they are going to race regardless if it is in there own souped up civic or their mums mini van, they will find a way.  If insurance companies were smart they would capatalize on this and make a special program for people who actually enjoy driving, take car of their care, put time effort and money into their car.  They just look at one side.

My 10 cents...  I will beat the system.  There is no way im going into facility, i can lease another car pay insurance on another car and transport my car to different shows around ontario for less money than they want to insure my protege.

Ed

[Action Jackson]

$5100 / yr

Holy crap!

And I thought my estimate for $2500 / yr was alot for a P5!

[cruisinblackp5]

Facility insurance is really expensive this $5100 is actually really low in comparisom. I have had faqcility insurance in the past and it can go over the worth of the car very fast. Probably not with a new car but anything is possible. There are ways aroound this you can get similar insurance as the hot rod guys get and only do summer driving. Most don't touch there cars in the winter and only occasionaly drive there fore there is less risk to them, these cars are worth significant;y more than their book value and are very difficult to find replacement parts for, try to look up what these guys do, not sure if your current company offers something similar or if you will have togo elsewhere.

[taxmasta]

i got news for ppl who want to lower there car..... and expect to get into a accident and be fine...... think again

if the insurence company find out that u lie to them..... u can be screwed..... dont pay insurence for nothing... tell them what u have... or get screwed in the end

[ken]

I completely agree with you Ed - any reasonable person would too. However the insurance companies do not determine premiums based upon whats reasonable; on the contrary, sometimes the amount of a premium may fly in the face of logic completely. I have been working with risk management systems for several years in the financial industry - and really the models we use are no different from the risk models that the insurance companies use. A lot of times crunching the numbers may yield what would be viewed by any reasonable person to be an unfair premium, but thats the business - as soon as you introduce an unknown into the equation, you're going to pay a much higher premium. After all, these '800 pound gorillas' are here to do one thing - make money, and lots of it.

[protegedude]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but do coil overs effect your insurance?They are completely adjustable, right?

[ChopstickHero]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (protegedude @ April 15 2003,8:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but do coil overs effect your insurance?They are completely adjustable, right?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
they're still considered aftermarket and NOT something that came with the car.

[CarDemon]

That damned bleach spoiler MP5 Navy hated and I loved in my dreams came back to haunt you. Your classification is now Military roach drone/aviation. At your age and that price things are crazy. My cars were $5000.00 total and very used.

[Sky_high]

Hypothetically, if I get MP3 springs and install it, would that be considered a mod? It is a mazda part? And it doesn't make the car look lowered compared to a Eibach or a H&amp;R...so technically, one can get away, right?

[pawood]

Forget hypothetical, ask before you modify! Then do what you can afford.

[CarDemon]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pawood @ April 15 2003,10:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Forget hypothetical, ask before you modify! Then do what you can afford.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That about sums it up!!!

[rowan]

OEM &quot;replacement&quot; components should be fine. It's just upgrading between models of the same car. Of course it is all up to the adjuster's interpretation in the end.

[DWM-motorsports]

This subject comes up more and more lately but its not new.
For years car nuts have been &quot;screwed&quot; when insurance companies find out the vehicle is not what they thought it was.I may be showing my age but not too many years ago it was common to take plain used Chev Nova's and cars like it(the basic factory econo boxes) which came with 4 or 6cly engine as the base engine then stuff in a big V8 from a old cop car or something.The raise the rear up with spring kit
and the stuff some bigger sized tires under there.
result faster car. poor handling, a bumper so high at the rear if the car was rear ended the gas tank would be the first thing the other vehicle would hit.
But at least we could afford the insurance because the car was insured based on the orginal owmership which was listed as 4 cyl.
Worked great until insurance company finds out , which was usually after claim is filed.
Now just follow along with Taxes story and you will realize things haven't changed much in twenty years.
I agree with Tax, tell the insurance company up frt what you have.
I also agree all mods should not be rated the same. I have seen some very poor (unsafe ) mods. Cutting springs too lower the vehicle is one. But what about the springs sold By Ford Or GM by their performance divisions. They have been tested and approved for sale by the engineers who build the car in the first place.Surely they must know if, when the part Is installed,the vehicle still meets federal stanards. Usually if it doesn,t they usually put in  print(not for street use)

[Eds mp5]

I do understand this all, and i do believe that you should inform your insurance company of all your mods - like i have been doing. The problem lies when they actually don't have anywhere for you to be 'placed' Why is it there is insurance for a mazda speed lets say a car worth 30000 c/w turbo. My car P5 25000 i put on a turbo now up to 30000. Lets just add on a high risk factor say 2500 to make it interesting. Why is it that all of a sudden it jumps from say 3000 insurance a year for the mazda speed to 10000 for a facility placed p5!! it just doesn't make sense. The reason, the insurance companies dont understand the mods and are afraid. I don't think i should pay the same amount of insurance as a non modded p5, i totally agree with that. I have put money into the car the value has 'increased' i expect to pay more! but make it reasonable.

I added the option of extra coverage on my stereo rated at up to 6000 extra and it only cost me 12$ more a month!! at total increase of 144$

This just buggs me soo much.... you try and do the 'right' thing and you are pushed to do the worng thing. Who in there right mind would volentarily pay facility insurance if they didn't have to.

[OceanPark]

The logic of insurance companies is &quot;car modifications make people to drive dangerously.&quot;

As long as there are no laws to define each and every specification, we have to pay whatever the insurance companies think is valid. Keep in mind that~ insurance is a business after all, not your friend….


For 5100/yr + your P5 payment, it could get you a BMW.

[P5 Rally]

My insurance company is AXA. My Broker had told me the other day that they offer the lowest rates for ppl in my age group, under 25. They apparently take into account the time u had your G2, if that applies to you, rather than strictly time with G. This gives u more driving 'experiance'.

I had sent them my bill of sale when i purchased my P5 (they asked for it) and it indicated that i had purchased and installed, at the dealer, exhaust and lowering springs and I was still quoted just under 2500/yr ( i also have a clean sheet). I didn't verbally tell them my car was mod'd at the dealer, but it was written in plain english and they saw it!! Can I still get nailed because i didn't say it to them? http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[dr_sarcasm]

HA!

You think those bloodsuckers are bad now? Just wait and see if the new bill is passed - you know, the one that gives the police sweeping powers to pick and choose those cars they feel have 'illegal' modifications and have said 'modifications' removed and confiscated.

Fucking province is becoming a police state.


dr_&quot;I'm never getting a body kit - instant signage for police&quot;_sarcasm.

[superdave]

The car dealers might aswell put locks on our hoods so we can't even touch the engine. I seriously wonder what we will legally be able to do to our cars in 10 years http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Is this just an Ontario thing? If it is, I'm moving. I hate Ontario anyway, all the more reason to leave. http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif

[7plymaple]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (superdave @ April 16 2003,5:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The car dealers might aswell put locks on our hoods so we can't even touch the engine. I seriously wonder what we will legally be able to do to our cars in 10 years http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Is this just an Ontario thing? If it is, I'm moving. I hate Ontario anyway, all the more reason to leave.  http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Go ahead... move to some other city whos gonna get their asses kicked by the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS!!!!!

Seriusly though this happend to my buddy from college with his Corvette smoking Eagle Talon. He got nailed and then they wanted to write off the car because of the value of a talon of that year vs the cost of the repairs. He had to get it appraised to prove to them that he had like 10 Gs into the car. Then they fixed it but they stopped covering him.

In the end to get it back on the road he said he bought a truck and insured that. Then he insured the talon as a recreational vehicle.

P.S. No he isnt the guy from The Fast and the Furius. http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif

[EvolutionIV]

..the insurance companies are so Messed up. I had a friend that got harrased by a CERTAIN cop in the Toronto area that picks on Imports.....He's picked on a couple of my friends...the station probably has a whole filing cabinet of compliant files on him.

An example of his actions: He went to my friend's house at 11pm at night to try to get her to sign some document that changes the court day, because he couldn't make it the next day. My friend showed up to court the next day and told the judge what happened, the judge threw the case out.

Anyhow, the cop called his insurance company about his &quot;concern&quot; for the mods my friend had on his car. The insurance company called up my friend to tell him that that cop called to harrass them.

The reason the insurance company didn't care was that combined with his parents' cars, they had over 10k of premiums per year.

Moral of the story: Insurance comapnys don't give a shit about mods and safety. Their own concern is the money they make off you. If you have money, you can tell them you have NOS, turbo, and whatever else you want to put on your car, and they won't do anything. Things aren't going to change, its the way the world works.

...totally sucks...

http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif  http://msg.toprotege.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Evo.

[Eds mp5]

I disagree evolution..  That may be the case, but wait till there is a claim to pay, we'll see if the insurance company pays out.  We have all our insurance through one agent and insurance company, and were not a small family!  I don't think that has anything to do with it now, it's just they are going after the worng people.

i wonder if there is anyone that we can actually talk to about this, someone that would make sense of it.  Jim Kenzie from the toronto star (wheels sections)?  Perhaps the insurance bureau?  any suggestions.  

Ed

[EvolutionIV]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eds mp5 @ April 16 2003,6:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I disagree evolution..  That may be the case, but wait till there is a claim to pay, we'll see if the insurance company pays out.  We have all our insurance through one agent and insurance company, and were not a small family![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
true true....

Anyhow, last week or the week before, there was a Saturday Wheel's Section Article on how this one guy's civic always get harrassed by cops.

Maybe we can get that writer to write some type of story.

Evo.

[jali-p5]

it's bad enough that cops harass people and profile people the way they do, but i don't think we should be drawing attention to proteges like you're thinking cause that would just provide the police w/ more reasons to start harassing us w/ stupid stuff like they do to those civic guys.......but maybe somebody has a friend or knows someone who works w/ insurance and can figure out what options we do have if we do mod our cars.......