NA Setup

[vgo]

Well looking over the forum I see that most of you have turbo's installed. Im not as fortunate as I had to buy my protege so that my sister can drive it too therefore it had to be an auto. I know that you can still get an auto with turbo with the HS Kit, but im starting to lean more towards NA setup than a turbo. I just dont wanna blow too much money all at once. I wanna buy them slowly and have some sort of enhancement to my car on each upgrade. Im not looking forward to a super fast protege. I have an 02 LX Protege and I at least wanna increase torque and reach 200kmph then i'll be happy. I'm not car savvy but im willing to learn. I've read the NA Theory and will go thru it again. But I thought i'd make this thread for the people who are going towards the NA path can list down their upgrades and update on their new findings so there is a record we can all follow. Sorry but im a noob :o

[burlingtonprotege]

Headers $200
Intake $100-200
Full Exhaust + hiflow cat $500ish
Pulley $200
7.5lb Flywheel $300


i can get over 200 with intake headers and exhaust

p.s we were all new at one time.. back in april i didnt know the difference between a pro and a pro5 or what a msp even was.. ive learned alot from here as im sure you will as well. enjoy.

[CrazyCaker]

^ he's ATx, so flywheel is out of the question.

[TokyoRacer]

What is this pulley we speak of?

[Keegz]

Headers $200
Intake $100-200
Full Exhaust + hiflow cat $500ish
Pulley $200
7.5lb Flywheel $300


i can get over 200 with intake headers and exhaust

p.s we were all new at one time.. back in april i didnt know the difference between a pro and a pro5 or what a msp even was.. ive learned alot from here as im sure you will as well. enjoy.

You don't mean intake manifold, just CAI or SRI correct?? and yeah wtf is a pulley lol.

[2003 Mazdaspeed]

i can get over 200 with intake headers and exhaust


200hp??.... on a progete w/ just intake header and exhaust?

[Spyder01]

^ I think he meant he can reach 200km/h with intake, header and exhaust

[2003 Mazdaspeed]

Any mod on the engine won't change ur top speed

[thekid]

I'd take most of those prices Burlington Protege posted with a grain of salt... they're either used prices or USD prices if you're lucky!

As for the pulley, he's probably talking about an Lightweight Underdrive Pulley... companies like Unorthodox make them. They're lighter than the OE crank pulley so they end up freeing up power that is normally lost through the OE pulley. This will not result in extra power being created, merely less power lossed before it gets to the wheels.

Opinions on this mod are wide spread, but there is potential to "underdrive" your accesories such as the alternator and A/C compressor...

[shibby]

get em all used, or most of em

CAI- 90 bucks

Headers-200 bucks

Header Back custom piping 500 bucks

UR pulley 75 bucks

Cam Shafts were like 150 i believe

phenolic spacers (still to install) were 50 bucks

[burlingtonprotege]

i was going by used prices.. and yes i was talking about 200km/h now 200whp.. cant make that on are cars without a turbo

[thekid]

i was going by used prices.. and yes i was talking about 200km/h now 200whp.. cant make that on are cars without a turbo

you can definitely make 200whp on the 2.0L motor without a turbo... it just won't be easy or cheap... but Tripoint has done it!

[TokyoRacer]

Where do you get these pulleys? I checked the Unorthodox site but it wasn't overly helpful. Are they ahrd to install?

[thekid]

UR discontinued the pulley they make for the 2.0L protege.

Our supplier still has one left in stock after that they won't be getting more is what they've told me. $240 taxes in.

[burlingtonprotege]

really? holy crap.. i didnt think it was possible.. that would take alot of money.... still cant believe it! wow.
you can definitely make 200whp on the 2.0L motor without a turbo... it just won't be easy or cheap... but Tripoint has done it!

[burlingtonprotege]

doesnt flywheel?
Any mod on the engine won't change ur top speed

[RicecookerP5]

Any mod on the engine won't change ur top speed

I have to disagree w/ this eastie.

The only thing limiting our car's top speed is drag. So, as you reach the drag limitation, the car needs more power to continue accelerating. bolt on's that add, or free up, power will make you go faster and delay the point when drag takes over.

correct me if I'm wrong. then I'll say I'm wrong.

[2003 Mazdaspeed]

well... let say you can get to 220km/h w/ 6000rpm at 5th gear...

no matter what u do to the engine that won't change...

[RicecookerP5]

well... let say you can get to 220km/h w/ 6000rpm at 5th gear...

no matter what u do to the engine that won't change...

i don't see why not.

esplain it to me homes!

[CustomsChris]

I think he's leaning more toward the final drive ratio side of things. No matter what kind of numbers your putting down, you can only go so fast with a certain gearing at redline. The HP increase will only get you there faster.

[tiwing]

let's clear some things up here.

first, my understanding is the P5 is drag limited. which means it's air resistance that limits the top speed of the P5 (or pro sedan). Drive down a hill and you can get more speed. increase the power, and you can get more speed. If it were limited by gearing, then no matter what you do to the engine you would have to change the gearing to achieve more speed.

There are two limits we're talking about here. keep 'em straight.

by the way, where do you plan on using this magical 200km top speed? I hope your sister doesn't do that on the way to school. If you want a fun car, concentrate on TORQUE instead of HP. Torque is the fun, usable stuff on a street car. HP will get you to 200, but what's the point if a) it takes longer to get there because you conentrated on top end power, and b) no fun in the city or even on regular driving on the highway because you lost torque to gain HP. Think about what you want out of an NA build before you go and do it. If you go down the road far enough to build some serious power out of an NA 2L FS engine, you will have drastically different cam profiles, custom intake manifold runner lengths, and a different header (4-1 vs 4-2-1) to focus on torque or HP...

[tiwing]

I think he's leaning more toward the final drive ratio side of things. No matter what kind of numbers your putting down, you can only go so fast with a certain gearing at redline. The HP increase will only get you there faster.

I believe the gearing of the P5 allows for 200kph before redline in 5th.. not 100% positive 'cause the MSP have different gearing...

[bluewater87]

I believe the gearing of the P5 allows for 200kph before redline in 5th.. not 100% positive 'cause the MSP have different gearing...

ya i think the P5 is at about almost 4500-5000 rpm at 200kph.
but how would i know?:D

[CrazyCaker]

'cause the MSP have different gearing...

Are you sure about that? Where did you get this info, and is it 100% reliable?

[burlingtonprotege]

"custom intake manifold runner lengths, and a different header (4-1 vs 4-2-1) to focus on torque or HP..."

i have 4-1 headers.. so wut does that mean? its better then 4-2-1?

[2003 Mazdaspeed]

Are you sure about that? Where did you get this info, and is it 100% reliable?


I think i have read sth about this before... I think the final drive is different, not 100% sure

[thekid]

I think i have read sth about this before... I think the final drive is different, not 100% sure

I was under the same understanding...

... I'm not sure if this part is different than the P5 but I remember reading that Mazda changed the MSP gearing so it would have a 1 shift 0-60 run...

I'm sure Edwin could comment.

[RicecookerP5]

So am I wrong?

seems David and I are talking about something completely different.

drag or final gear? What stops us from going faster?

[ace7777]

Headers $200
Intake $100-200
Full Exhaust + hiflow cat $500ish
Pulley $200
7.5lb Flywheel $300


where is there a 7lb flywheel for 300 ill buy one right now .

[130pro5]

So am I wrong?

seems David and I are talking about something completely different.

drag or final gear? What stops us from going faster?

well you can get to 200kmh because our cars are drag limited. final gear is the max speed our cars are able to do with more power from mods without changing the final gear. i don't think anyone here have redlined their 5th gear.. or at least they wouldn't admit to it lol.. but i have to admit i AM curious

[burlingtonprotege]

fastest ive gone was just over 200.. i tried to go faster but there just wasnt any power to get up there.. next time i get the chance ill c if i can get redline.. might take 5-10 minutes..jk;) but seriously.. but jk ..
well you can get to 200kmh because our cars are drag limited. final gear is the max speed our cars are able to do with more power from mods without changing the final gear. i don't think anyone here have redlined their 5th gear.. or at least they wouldn't admit to it lol.. but i have to admit i AM curious

[superdave]

People shouldn't speak if they don't have a ***kin clue what they are talkin about. This thread has more shit in it than your average outhouse.

[Keegz]

185 is my top... thats for an '01 LX 2.0 5speed.

[CrazyCaker]

I have redlined 5th, it's not hard to do. Top speed is around 223km/hr. (Do Not Attempt This on Public Roads! ;) )

Edit: Oh NA mods are:
OBX header
MAM Midpipe
Megan Cat-back
IM/TB spacers (ported to match)
K&N CAI
Fidanza Flywheel
Exedy stage 1 clutch
welded msp lsd
awr motor mounts (all 4)
UR crank pulley
some other stuff...

[vgo]

wow i appreciate for all your inputs. its good to see all the NA ppl give some feedback. i've been busy lately so i havent had the chance to get back to this. but now im at work so i was able to look over it today lol.

anyway i wanna reach 200kmph just so i can say it does =P
having more torque is fun but i wish i could feel more of that when im going from 4 to 5th gear. i know that our protege's dont shine when it comes to those gears due to low hp but im pretty sure that my car can do better than what it can now. im most likely gonna make my first upgrade with a new intake and header. correct me if im wrong but i have the sense that having this upgrade will show the most significant change to my car?

[burlingtonprotege]

most youll see will be exhaust with a hiflow cat, then headers, then intake.. as for pickup.. flywheel.

[CrazyCaker]

as for pickup.. flywheel.

I'd actually have to say the lightened underdrive crank pulley made more difference, but the 2 together are awesome.

[vgo]

ahh i see. well as crazycracker said flywheel's outta the question. im auto. but speaking of exhausts, can anyone recommend a good exhaust that can give speed but low sounds. i dont want anything too loud.



i just found this. pretty skeptical i wonder if any of you had bought something like this.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/20HP-MAZDA-MX-3-5RX7-MIATA-PROTEGE-626-323-SPEED-CHIP_W0QQitemZ330066602185QQihZ014QQcategoryZ107062QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[CrazyCaker]

i just found this. pretty skeptical i wonder if any of you had bought something like this.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/20HP-MAZDA-MX-3-5RX7-MIATA-PROTEGE-626-323-SPEED-CHIP_W0QQitemZ330066602185QQihZ014QQcategoryZ107062QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Pure SCAM! Stay away from that shit.

[burlingtonprotege]

cant beat this price..

http://www.toprotege.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29198

$280.. and just buy a hiflow cat and ur set.

there is another cat on ur headers.. so that would b the next thing to tackle.. all you need is 1 cat on ur car.. thats wut im running.. obx headers.. and just 1 hiflow cat.

[CrazyCaker]

cant beat this price..

http://www.toprotege.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29198

$280.. and just buy a hiflow cat and ur set.

3" is a bit over kill, especially on an auto lmao. But hey, go for it it's an awesome price.

[Keegz]

3" is a bit over kill, especially on an auto lmao. But hey, go for it it's an awesome price.


What about for a 2.0L 5 speed?

[midnitehour]

so drag being the biggest problem with our cars, high windshield angle being a big problem, what are some of the things that can be done to reduce drag?
i hit 185 in an auto on winter tires, so there's definetly more potential.

[CrazyCaker]

I believe the gearing of the P5 allows for 200kph before redline in 5th.. not 100% positive 'cause the MSP have different gearing...

BAM! MSP & P5 = Identical gearing! :) (told you so lol ;) )

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2693475&postcount=27

[Gen1GT]

First, I'll tackle the stop speed issue, which for the P5(or any other Protege) is NOT gear limited, lol.

.755:1 is the 5th gear ratio for the P5, and a final drive of 4.105:1, giving a 5th gear total ratio of 3.1:1. Tire sized 195/55/16 has an overall diameter of 24.44". Also, a 6500RPM redline is factored in(this is with the 5-speed, check ProtegeFAQ for automatic ratios). So if we punch the numbers into this calculator:

http://www.catherineandken.co.uk/sti/tyres.html

We get theoretical top speed of 152mph or 243kph.

Now, how much horsepower will you need to get to that speed? I'd guess in the 240-250hp range. And just because you guys believe you have done 220kph, trust me, you haven't. Manufacturers add a bit of idiot control to their vehicles to make people believe they're going faster than they are. All speedometers read faster than you're actually going. It's why my speedometer says 95mph through the speed trap at the dragstrip, and my timeslip says 88mph. The factor is even higher the faster you go. If you think you're doing 220, you're probably only doing 200.

If you want to hit 200kph in your NA, auto equipted P5, you have your work cut out for you. You're gonna need at least 120whp, and you're gonna have to have that engine tuned to the max unless you want to open it up. Considering you have about 30whp to be gained, good luck. lol

[vgo]

well i really dont plan to make this into a race car. i just wanna make it so its faster than stock. for now im shopping for exhausts and headers to be installed sometime this summer. hmmmm...then maybe get it dyno'd for some tuning

[slowbird]

Whooo! That calculator guesstimates my car for 200mph :p
...maybe on a Dyno with no load on the rollers.

So are these Gear ratio's correct for the Pro 5-speeds?
First 3.307
Second 1.842
Third 1.310
Fourth 0.970
Fifth 0.755
Reverse 3.166
Final Drive 4.105

Shouldn't one of these gears have a 1:1 ratio?

[P5dude2]

First, I'll tackle the stop speed issue, which for the P5(or any other Protege) is NOT gear limited, lol.

.755:1 is the 5th gear ratio for the P5, and a final drive of 4.105:1, giving a 5th gear total ratio of 3.1:1. Tire sized 195/55/16 has an overall diameter of 24.44". Also, a 6500RPM redline is factored in(this is with the 5-speed, check ProtegeFAQ for automatic ratios). So if we punch the numbers into this calculator:

http://www.catherineandken.co.uk/sti/tyres.html

We get theoretical top speed of 152mph or 243kph.

Now, how much horsepower will you need to get to that speed? I'd guess in the 240-250hp range. And just because you guys believe you have done 220kph, trust me, you haven't. Manufacturers add a bit of idiot control to their vehicles to make people believe they're going faster than they are. All speedometers read faster than you're actually going. It's why my speedometer says 95mph through the speed trap at the dragstrip, and my timeslip says 88mph. The factor is even higher the faster you go. If you think you're doing 220, you're probably only doing 200.

If you want to hit 200kph in your NA, auto equipted P5, you have your work cut out for you. You're gonna need at least 120whp, and you're gonna have to have that engine tuned to the max unless you want to open it up. Considering you have about 30whp to be gained, good luck. lol

so if the speedo is at an offset, does that stand in court fighting a speeding ticket? :)

[slowbird]

I don't think Speedometers are that far off right from the factory on purpose.

My dad and I have driven at 80-100km/h side, by side and our speeds showed the same. Two completely different Makes and Models.

Same with those "YOUR SPEED IS" Radar signs. They're usually pretty acurate.

I think the Manufacturers idea of "idiot control" on vehicles are Speed Govenors.

[Gen1GT]

I don't think Speedometers are that far off right from the factory on purpose.

My dad and I have driven at 80-100km/h side, by side and our speeds showed the same. Two completely different Makes and Models.

Same with those "YOUR SPEED IS" Radar signs. They're usually pretty acurate.

I think the Manufacturers idea of "idiot control" on vehicles are Speed Govenors.

They can be off much more than you think. Even a tire with brand-new, thick tread will read a slower speedometer than that same car with bald tires. Just for shits and giggles, open that top speed calculator and just type 'calculate' with the numbers given. Then change the aspect ratio of the tire to 55%, and see how much it changes the outcome. Here's a little piece from the Australian government about speedometer accuracy(a few paragraphs down):

http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/rsc/DEMERIT/demerit3.htm

And no, you couldn't use an inaccurate speedometer as a way out of a ticket, especially since speedos read high. What are you going to say? "Yeah Mr. Judge, I went 140 because I knew I was only going 130."

[Gen1GT]

Whooo! That calculator guesstimates my car for 200mph :p
...maybe on a Dyno with no load on the rollers.

So are these Gear ratio's correct for the Pro 5-speeds?
First 3.307
Second 1.842
Third 1.310
Fourth 0.970
Fifth 0.755
Reverse 3.166
Final Drive 4.105

Shouldn't one of these gears have a 1:1 ratio?

Why?

[slowbird]

Economically speaking...theres no reason why a tranny should have a 1:1 gear.

Every Tranny I've checked the ratio's for always had a 3rd or 4th gear with a 1:1 Ratio.

That's the gear you need to be in when running on a Dyno.

Just curious...

Looking up some other cars...some have a 1:1 gear, and some don't.

I guess all you guys who have this tranny must be doing 4th gear Dyno pulls, cause it's closest to the 1:1

[Gen1GT]

Yeah, they suggest to do dyno pulls in the gear closest to 1:1, but I've never understood how that matters when your final drive is 4:1.

[S.S.S.P5]

Hey boss, take it from me, all of these "mods" that have been listed here can be benificial to your high performance needs, but, none of them will actually get you to your magical 200km/ph-120mph mark. In order for you to get anywhere near that number, your gonna need $$$$$$$$$$. A NA build is cheaper than a turbo build yes, but think about this. In order for you to hit the 2 bill mark in your car, your gonna need atleast 170 hp at the wheels, your car makes 130 hp right? well that means your not to far away then, right? WRONG! I think a few members may have got you hopes a little too high.

Let me expain
(all #'s are aproximate)
mazda fs-de 2.0L - 130 hp. give or take
subtract 35 hp right away for the auto tranny, that leaves us with about 95 hp
now im not sure but I think our cars produce a solid 90 hp on a chassis dyno so lets take away the extra fiv too leaving us with the 90

right now your probobly like 90? WTF??? its true

lets add a few BOLT-ON's now

cold air intake (cai) manufactuar says 10-15 hp -really its about 2-7
cat back ehaust manufactuar says 15-25 hp - really its about 4-8
crank pully unorthodox racing says 6-14 hp - really its about 3-8
flywheel (not important to you) Ive heard as high as 20 hp - really it has no hp gains at all! but what it does is pretty cool tho, the way it was explained to me from fidanza is it acts like you lightened the car! somthing like 80 lbs. for first gear, 55 lbs. for second 25 lbs. for third bla bla bla
high flow cat im not sure but i know a converter only eats 3-6 hp anyway so..
header manufactuar say like 10-25 hp this # is a little inflated, although this was the only mod that i did that i could actually feel (not like the i got excited at the new noise feel of the cai) a gain in the car, but im sure it was no astronomical number of ponies unleashed.

so lets go with the higher numbers first
10+25+14+6+25=75! hmmmm that seems like the bolt on parts actually make the engine make more hp than when the factory tested the motor on the "bench" see what im trying to say? the mods listed most likely FREE UP abot 20hp give or take. thats all so you'd be back up to like 110-125 hp.

Ever see Tuner Transformation's Dyno Truth or Dare? Dont be one of those guys!:eek:

To make any serious gains you need to crack open that motor, change the cams, up the comp to 10.5:1 with some fsze pistons, get a new intake mani, bore the throttle body, add a stand alone comp balance the crank. Then add new connecting rods and arp bolts to hold it all together, then you can do 200km/ph

Ive done all of these bolt on mods (no internals) with less than stellar results. Granted my P5 destroyes a stock Si, but who cares? any 04+ will most likely destroy me so whats the point of spending 2000+ dollars in parts, well to me I love my mazda, and i love my sport/hobby, and ever since lego stopped being "cool" i needed somthing to fill my need of adding, removing, and modding somehow (hence my newest project 91 EF 4-door GSR build) and having more money than brains dont hurt either.

Trust me tho, the first time a bone stock mazda 3 2.3L whups you like you were standing still the $1500 you spent on you catback system wont seem like a very good investment anymore. But that was befor the header tho so..

So whats the moral of this contradictory story you may ask? Well, dont mod your car cuz you want it to do somthing specific, unless you have a bottomles bank account, (and if you do buy, a faster car to start with) and a crew of mechanics, build your car cuz thats what you love, otherwise you'll just be pennyless and depressed.

But Dont Get Discouraged!!!!! This is an amazing sport and hobby, ful of great people that genuinly want to help with anything, alot of great friendships, and business have been forged through this industry, wether it be painters car audio guys turbo guys race guys and show guys, who would have otherwise never knew each other if it wasn't for our cars, and our passion.:)

[vgo]

man thats a great write up. i was thinking of getting the engine forged sometime in the future too. but i still dont see why those bolt-ons wont be able to make the car reach 200kmph. i mean i can reach 180 and its completely stock. and from what it sounds like, having those bolt-ons will just gain the HP that was orginally loss from the stock setup. so having those gains back should have some effect on the max speed. as long as it can reach 200kmph i'll be happy, but it would be the torque that im really gonna try to work at.

at the meantime i still have to save up for a new protege. its pretty hard finding manuals, but there are some 2003 sedans with tiptronic...i was wondering when on the tiptronic mode, will it have any torque gains compared with it sitting on auto?

[razpizdiay]

reaching 200 is the extremely easy and possible.... almost all 2.0 sedans have a stock top speed of 190.

power solutions were disscussed by other memebers, so i wont add onto that.

what you havent talked about was lowering springs. if you lower the car, you would have less drag. VOILA! your aerodynamics issue is solved.

gearing wise, we have low gear ration trannys, thats why our top speed may suffer, while the acceleration is good. if you want top speed, slap on larger outer diameter tires. VOILA! larger wheels will make you accelerate slower, but you will have potential to reach high speed (if you got enough power). also, the speedo will be off, but you can calculate by how many percent, and put a different speedometer sticker on.

easiest mod - REMOVE junk from your car. make it lighter. also, dont use 18" chromies... put on light rims.

hope this adds some usefull info

[vgo]

thanks a lot man...your write up, and everyone elses input in this has been helpful and hopefully will come in handy to anyone thats new in this.
oh and question still to be answered. will the tiptronic mode have any benefit in torque compared to auto mode?

[razpizdiay]

tiptronics usually have as many (if not more) gears as a manual, so you would accelerate well, as well as have a high top speed. how would you get a tiptronic on a protege anyways?

[S.S.S.P5]

no it dosnt change the torque of the engine, it usualy just allows you to rev the motor higher, or downshift for turns

[vgo]

tiptronics usually have as many (if not more) gears as a manual, so you would accelerate well, as well as have a high top speed. how would you get a tiptronic on a protege anyways?


some 2003 models have them.

[viper_707]

lego will never be old

[razpizdiay]

lego will never be old

LOL

!!! lego FTW !!!

[Gen1GT]

Tiptronics, or manually shifted automatics, rarely have more speeds that a manual transmission. Mercedes, and a few others, make a 7-Speed auto. Other cars, like the Enzo, has a remotely shifted manual transmission.

How many gears a car has nothing to do with top speed. A 2-speed manual could have total gearing of 3:1 in 2nd gear, and a 7-speed auto could have a 4:1 ratio in 7th. Ideally, to reach top speed, you want a gear ratio that terminates at peak horsepower at the same speed you will be drag limited, with that particular RPM. Let's say your car needs 110whp to maintain 200kph, and your car makes 110whp at 6000RPM. Ideal gear ratio would allow you to be at 6000RPM in top gear, at 200kph. To go any faster(under ideal conditions), you would need to make 110whp at 6100RPM, or 110whp at 6200RPM etc.

Putting larger wheels will increase your gear limited top speed, but not your drag limited top speed. The wheels are guaranteed to be heavier, and will have higher rotational inertia. It doesn't matter what gearing is, as long as you're making highest power at the speed you're trying to achieve. In actuality, you are probably making 80whp at 6000RPM(or around that figure). If you want to go faster, you will need to make 80whp at 6100RPM. Of course, it's not that simple, since drag increases squarely with speed.

[razpizdiay]

thank you car scientist for your wisdom!